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Thread: Repeater

  1. #1

    Default Repeater

    Hi,

    New Licensed Ham here. I have researched the internet and the forum for days now, still have not found the answer. I go offroading and have researched about repeaters in my area, I know you can use a repeater for emergency broadcast and all, but my question is, if simplex communication is not possible between me and my friend (for any reason), can we use a repeater station to talk to each other? How would you setup you radio to do that? Because as I understand if you use a repeater every body who is using the repeater freq can hear you, but again to my question, can we use the repeater just to talk to each other? for example in one of our off roading trips where simplex is not enough?

    Sorry for the Noob question.

    Thank you in advance.

  2. #2

    Default

    You could, if there is one that covers the area. Most amateur radio repeaters are owned by clubs or organizations that operate them for all hams. However, if you want your conversation to be private, you're just out of luck. Everyone tuned to the repeater frequency will be able to hear you.

  3. #3

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    you can only use repeaters if both of you have a license.

    Not all repeaters are open, some / most are built by private citizens and on their dime..

    When you talk on amateur radio - you must keep the conversation amateur radio related, you can't act like its a cell phone or a cb radio.

    Technically your needs would be better met with a cb radio, there no one cares..

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
    you can only use repeaters if both of you have a license.

    Not all repeaters are open, some / most are built by private citizens and on their dime..

    When you talk on amateur radio - you must keep the conversation amateur radio related, you can't act like its a cell phone or a cb radio.

    Technically your needs would be better met with a cb radio, there no one cares..

    1. correct with regard both needing to be licenced

    2. not aware of 'closed' repeaters being allowed on amateur frequencies , fairly sure UK based one wouldn't get a NoV

    3. interesting spin on " is the use of radio frequency spectrum for purposes of non-commercial exchange of messages, wireless experimentation, self-training, private recreation, radiosport, contesting, and emergency communication." as the wikipedia entry says or as the RSGB say

    "Amateur radio is a popular technical hobby and volunteer public service that uses designated radio frequencies for non-commercial exchange of messages, wireless experimentation, self-training, and emergency communications."

    unless you are suggesting the OP is using Amateur radio for commercial purposes i think you are somewhat off the mark there ... as for 'keeping conversation to amateur radio ' my own QSO , even as a newly licensed operator seem to be be slit roughly into thirds of exchanging signal reports and taking aobut the kit *actually in use* , vs general rag chewing about the hobby and other none commercial general conversation ...

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
    you can only use repeaters if both of you have a license.

    Not all repeaters are open, some / most are built by private citizens and on their dime..

    When you talk on amateur radio - you must keep the conversation amateur radio related, you can't act like its a cell phone or a cb radio.

    Technically your needs would be better met with a cb radio, there no one cares..
    Assuming that the OP is in the United States, here's my take on your comments:

    Yes, you all need to be license to talk on amateur radio frequencies, whether it's simplex or through a repeater.

    The number of "closed" repeaters, i.e., those restricted to a certain group of people, are far outweighed by the number of open repeaters available to all licensed amateur radio operators.

    I don't know where you came up with the idea that all conversations on amateur radio have to be amateur radio related, but that's just not true in the US. I monitor a bunch of repeaters in the San Diego area on a daily basis and I hear all kinds of conversations ranging from the operator's medical ailments and home plumbing problems to politics and how the Coronavirus situation is a big hoax. About the only thing you can't do is use the frequencies for commercial purposes.

    No, his needs would not be better met with a CB. All the off-roaders around here are discovering how limited CB really is and how much better amateur radio is for coordinating outings (another topic of conversation on ham radio.) Example: A good friend bought a Jeep and got involved in off-roading. I gave him an old CB I had kicking around, but six months later he came to me looking to get his amateur license because one of the groups he wanted to go out with required it.
    Last edited by K6CPO; Wed 24th Jun 2020 at 17:58.

  6. #6

    Join Date
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    Jeep Jamboree's usually charges a fee - when you charge a fee - it now becomes a business, you can't use amateur radio for business purposes.

    https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Tech.../repeater1.pdf

    http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Get%2...de%20EBOOK.pdf

  7. #7

  8. #8

    Default

    So, what you are saying, R2D2, is that if you set up a "closed" repeater with an input frequency of, say, 146.240MHz, as a licensed ham in your area I would then be barred from transmitting on 146.240MHz all because the opinions on a forum led you to believe that chunk of the spectrum now belongs to you just because you had enough money to use it with expensive equipment? Show me that law or FCC rule, lol.

    If you put a repeater on ham frequencies, you acknowledge the possibility of other hams using it. That is the choice you make investing equipment and electricity in an amateur band. You've said it countless times, this hobby isn't cheap ~ so dont whine about the investment!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by brandon lind View Post
    So, what you are saying, R2D2, is that if you set up a "closed" repeater with an input frequency of, say, 146.240MHz, as a licensed ham in your area I would then be barred from transmitting on 146.240MHz all because the opinions on a forum led you to believe that chunk of the spectrum now belongs to you just because you had enough money to use it with expensive equipment? Show me that law or FCC rule, lol.

    If you put a repeater on ham frequencies, you acknowledge the possibility of other hams using it. That is the choice you make investing equipment and electricity in an amateur band. You've said it countless times, this hobby isn't cheap ~ so dont whine about the investment!
    This is where frequency coordination comes into play. The proper procedure for setting up an amateur radio repeater is to select a frequency pair, then apply to the local coordinating group for approval to put up the repeater on those frequencies. Once the coordinating group approves the frequency, then it's "yours" so to speak. By having a coordinating group, it prevents repeaters with the same frequency from being established in the same area. Sometimes, due to propagation conditions repeaters in one area can be heard in another area on the same frequency as a local repeater. (Did that make sense?) Here's an example: There is a repeater at 449.780 MHz on Mount Woodson Northeast of San Diego. There is a repeater in Signal Hill, CA (north of Long Beach) that utilizes the same frequency pair (but with a different PL access tone.) I can sometimes hear the Signal Hill repeater when my radio is tuned to the Mt. Woodson repeater. Since both repeaters are coordinated, this is perfectly acceptable "interference" and it only happens when conditions are right. Neither group "owns" that frequency and both use it regularly.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
    Jeep Jamboree's usually charges a fee - when you charge a fee - it now becomes a business, you can't use amateur radio for business purposes.
    Now you're just being picky. I really doubt the FCC is going to go after off-road organizations because they charge a "fee."

  11. #11

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    By "closed" repeaters, are we referring to the sub-audible tone necessary to access some repeaters? CTSS is very common, and in order to use those repeaters, you must know the tone and program it into your transceiver.
    Also, conservations can and do cover almost any topic.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by essbee View Post
    By "closed" repeaters, are we referring to the sub-audible tone necessary to access some repeaters? CTSS is very common, and in order to use those repeaters, you must know the tone and program it into your transceiver.
    Also, conservations can and do cover almost any topic.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
    No, all repeaters that are coordinated in the US must have a PL or DPL. There are a number of closed repeaters here in Texas for various reasons. They can still be accessed with permission. I talk to a friend on a closed system about once every three months or so and it’s no problem, but it will be inappropriate for me to ask another non member to meet me there.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by AC5PS View Post
    No, all repeaters that are coordinated in the US must have a PL or DPL. There are a number of closed repeaters here in Texas for various reasons. They can still be accessed with permission. I talk to a friend on a closed system about once every three months or so and its no problem, but it will be inappropriate for me to ask another non member to meet me there.
    Not true. I just looked at the list of coordinated 2 meter repeaters in the Southern California area (coordinated by TASMA, Two Meter Area Spectrum Management Association.) There are a substantial number of repeaters in the list that do not have PL tones.

    http://www.tasma.org/repeaters/2m-repeaters/

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by K6CPO View Post
    Not true. I just looked at the list of coordinated 2 meter repeaters in the Southern California area (coordinated by TASMA, Two Meter Area Spectrum Management Association.) There are a substantial number of repeaters in the list that do not have PL tones.

    http://www.tasma.org/repeaters/2m-repeaters/
    Let me rephrase; I don’t remember the year, I think it was in the late 90’s if you were wanting to put a repeater ( analog) in operation it has to have a “tone “. If the repeater was already in operation it’s grandfathered in.
    Last edited by AC5PS; Fri 26th Jun 2020 at 12:22.

  15. #15

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    The tones are coordinated by the area, for example, the western most portion of western pennsylvania and eastern ohio uses 103.5, the middle uses 173.8, the southern uses 123.0 or 131.8 - each section of the state uses a different PL.

    The PL is not mandatory but is suggested.. There are a lot of repeaters that doesn't use a PL because the repeater owner group is stuck in the 70's when the radios did not come with a PL board, so they are afraid if they run a PL they will lock out a small segment of their group.

    Or some silly notion that they can hear it and it degrades their audio.

    There are repeaters here that does not use it and when I key one I key 3 because my QTH is in a good location and can be received for 100 miles in all directions with the right band conditions..

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
    The tones are coordinated by the area, for example, the western most portion of western pennsylvania and eastern ohio uses 103.5, the middle uses 173.8, the southern uses 123.0 or 131.8 - each section of the state uses a different PL.

    The PL is not mandatory but is suggested.. There are a lot of repeaters that doesn't use a PL because the repeater owner group is stuck in the 70's when the radios did not come with a PL board, so they are afraid if they run a PL they will lock out a small segment of their group.

    Or some silly notion that they can hear it and it degrades their audio.

    There are repeaters here that does not use it and when I key one I key 3 because my QTH is in a good location and can be received for 100 miles in all directions with the right band conditions..
    I believe the standard in the UK is that toneburst access is still allowed but the repeater has to have CTCSS on the input , the output side of amateur analogue repeaters in the UK is without ctcss ... ( where commercial PMR will tend to be tone in and aobut for the limited security / lack of unwanted signals it is perceived to offer

  17. #17

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    OP I would say most outings when wheeling most if not all the trucks would be fairly close together allowing you to use simplex, land based repeater not needed in that case. If your on HT then typical power is 5watts but with mobile units you bump that up to 50 watts. Granted you should only use enough power to make a call VS max power. last I checked a CB was around 7 watts.

    This isn't to say you can't use a repeater but 10 jeepers chit chatting about locations, turn right that joke you been waiting to tell, I rolled my turck need help, power winch in now out ETC doesn't need to be on a repeater and if others are on the repeater listening they will more then likely ask you to drop off. What I would do is everyone agree on X repeater in the area as the fall back - listen to channel if the group were to get completely separated and most if not all coms happen on simplex.

    Most of the groups of people I wheel with now run Ham radio.. granted most are on baofeng HT vs mobile units but the CB is dyeing for sure.

    Another thing "Please note I haven't tried this yet" If your in a big group and someone in the middle of the group has a mobile with a cross band repeat I believe you can setup a mobile repeater with that radio to help the ones on the fringe areas at the front and back of the pack. I have been on one trip where we must of had 40-50 rigs deep but we used CB for the most part for the group and people in the center just relayed as needed. I think the leader and tail person used HAM to talk to each other but it was a big gathering of 200-300 people that divided up into smaller groups for each day.

    I did go on 1 trip where 1/2 the people were already at a camp site and I was showing up 2 days latter, to an area I never been to before. I had directions, GPS, so wasn't entirely blind .. I was able to make coms on simplex on a top of a mountain they were as well, but if we setup to use a repeater it would have been really easy to talk from my front door almost the entire way. FYI we have a local repeater that is up real hgih covering a big area.. lucky I reckon.


    One last thing my last trip out we were on simplex the entire time. Now when I rolled my rig over, and the jeep with the winch pulling me back over BROKE....I knew we needed help. I changed channels, hit a repeater and was able to get another human with a cell phone to make a call for me.
    So yes Ham is awesome, repeaters and simplex both have their place.
    Last edited by imjustdave; Sat 19th Dec 2020 at 05:44.

  18. #18

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    Amateur repeaters do not have to be coordinated, it just protects the owner from another repeater being placed close by on the same frequency. Tones are highly suggested by coordinating agencies but again it isn't a law. "Closed systems" can still be utilized by any licensed amateur as the FCC grants access of all licensed frequencies to all licensed operators. As to the original poster, yes you and your friend can talk on the repeater if you are both licensed, remember to ID every ten minutes, and remain courteous to other users. People need to read and understand the FCC Part 97 rules.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tempstar View Post
    Amateur repeaters do not have to be coordinated, it just protects the owner from another repeater being placed close by on the same frequency. Tones are highly suggested by coordinating agencies but again it isn't a law. "Closed systems" can still be utilized by any licensed amateur as the FCC grants access of all licensed frequencies to all licensed operators. As to the original poster, yes you and your friend can talk on the repeater if you are both licensed, remember to ID every ten minutes, and remain courteous to other users. People need to read and understand the FCC Part 97 rules.
    Apparently you don't fully understand the rules.

    If a group or a club chooses to make it's repeater system "closed" then they have the right to limit access to only those they choose. The FCC has made it very clear that repeater owners have the right to limit use to those they choose and have the right to ban individuals from their system if they choose. Most groups that do this limit access by not publishing the access tone.

    Also, if there is a dispute over two adjacent repeaters on the same frequency pair, the FCC will always give precedence to the coordinated repeater over a non-coordinated repeater. 97.205(c)

  20. #20

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    Also, if there is a dispute over two adjacent repeaters on the same frequency pair, the FCC will always give precedence to the coordinated repeater over a non-coordinated repeater. 97.205(c)

    Think I said this in the first line.

    Neither the FCC nor the ARRL take a stand on closed repeaters, and it becomes a "use of equipment" rule. The frequencies all remain the property of of any licensed amateur, but some clubs and trustees limit the use of their repeater equipment on those frequencies. The trustee can ask that people not use the equipment but unlessl they take steps to file with the FCC against every call sign that is using the equipment against the wishes of the trustee or owner, anyone can use it. Our club just went through all of this about 2 years ago. We had to contact the FCC field office in Atlanta, write letters to the offenders, contact the ARRL, and I forget what else, but in the end the only recourse we had was to have an attorney write a letter to the two offenders and threaten to sue them for the costs of using the equipment. Only if they were proven to be causing malicious interference would the FCC become involved, and since they were using it in accordance with Part 97 rules, we could not claim malicious interference. So yes, they have the right to say a system is closed, but no teeth to back it up. Been there and have the t-shirt.

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