Echolink with a PC

[sigord]

Being 77 with a few ops behind me I doubt I will ever risk getting involved with HF. Though I have been listening on the bands for some 60 years, it would never thrill me to have say a 12 second QSO with anyone struggling through QRM, no matter how far away, when I can have a long meaningful chat with locals on mostly clear VHF. Also my family would have a fit if I indulged in what seems a mandatory occupation for HF of forever clambering up ladders even on the roof rigging up new antennas.

Instead I have many interesting long DX QSOs using http://www.echolink.org/ which I can thoroughly recommend. To those such as long term Gs who insist using Repeaters especially just using a PC is not really ‘ Amateur radio ‘, I would remind them anyone has to send a JPG of their licence, to register. Also to judge by the way you need to wait a while for approval they probably have a way if checking its validity. This is unlike using the bands, where anyone can buy a TX and if they are lucky operate using any call sign. In fact the chances when many brag about numerous QSOs held such as in contests, many of these could in fact be with pirates.

However I must admit though there are often over 5000 repeaters etc showing as active at any time, even allowing for the right times, about one in 5 cannot be accessed, and of those you can access you may get a reply from someone in only about one in 10. Even so it is very rewarding how you can have a nice long clear sensible conversation from others anywhere in the world, instead of the proverbial 5 & 9 ! It is a pity our UK repeaters seem to be slowly dying, when at this moment it shows only UK 121,while Germany 267, Spain 173, Japan 370, Thailand 214, and the US of course 1961. Could it be something to do with us Brits being reluctant to really talk to any foreigners?

Gordon M3YXH

[G6NHU]

It's horses for courses, personally I don't really think much of Echolink although it's slightly better than QSONet/CQ100 in that at least it requires the operator to have a licence and the fact that there may be some radio involved at the remote end.

I don't think the pirate thing is that relevant and I really don't know why you've mentoned it. Just because one has to send a copy of a licence when registering for Echolink doesn't really mean anything because it's not difficult to knock up a fake .jpg file and they have no way of validating a licence except perhaps looking on qrz.com or checking in a callbook. They can't have access to a central UK database of licencees so by definition they can't do anything more than I've just described. I seem to remember that when I registered for Echolink some time ago to give it a try that my registration was confirmed within a minute or so. I think that the validation system is nothing more than a nod.

I operate both ways you describe, I'm happy to have a 12 second QSO with a bare minimum exchange of details and I'm equally happy to sit and natter for someone for half an hour. I'll do what's appropriate for the time and for my mood. If I fancy some DX chasing then it'll be the former and if I want a longer chat then it's the latter. It would be inappropriate to have a long QSO with a DX station when there's a pileup waiting to work him. It's all down to reading the circumstances.

Not all HF operation is a wham, bam, thank you ma'am affair. There are bands where one is almost guaranteed a longer QSO, 160m, 80m and to an extent 40m.

But you've been listening for a long time and you know all this anyway!

I do appreciate the benefits of Echolink but I think it's a shame to take a course, sit and pass a radio examination in order to use a system that's just voice over IP. One might as well sign up for CQ100 or HamSphere or even just ping random names on Skype!

[M0TTB]

Why use a pc for echolink, you can use many of the recent mobile phones to do it?... you can be /p

[sigord]

Actually I join in local Nets on 2m quite often either using an old Kenwood Trio TR - 7500, and I do have a Yaesu FT 60 if needed to also cover 70 cm. Both of our local 2m and 70 cm repeaters rarely get used, such that being Club Secretary I am baffled how they find the donations to keep them running.

My point is since there is no way to check the validity of any Call sign, it rather makes a farce of all the efforts that go into contests of even bragging about any DX contact. since you have no way of knowing if your contacts are genuine. But if you have a long QSO with someone on say Echolink you can often get a clue they are not not licenced by their lack of knowledge.

For example I once asked what transpired to be a M pirate on VHF where he took his test obviolsy only a short while ago, to be told he could not remember!!

[G6NHU]

You say there's no way to check the validity of any callsign, this is correct but in nearly thirty years of being licenced I don't think I've ever worked someone and then thought "oh, I wonder if that was a pirate, I wish I could check". I still don't understand the relevance.

[M0TTB]

Fortunately, in the world of serious HF dx'ing we have the ARRL dxcc desk ;-) Until the card arrives or the LoTW verification, it's best not to gloat.

On the whole, it's not easy to pirate a callsign of anything remotely rare on HF for for very long without being detected... pirates do appear sporadically, but are detected within hours, if not sooner. There are ears everywhere on HF, many with directional antennas and the dx clusters spread the news.

If you really don't know much about the world of HF dx'ing, it is easy to say 'he could be anywhere', in fact non amateurs often spout the same... the reality is very different. So apologies to the thread starter, but I really don't think you're familiar with the world of HF dx'ing.

[Ham Man]

Hello and good day.
I don't want to sound combative here, but the Echolink people does have a connection directly to the FCC data base - USA and they do Confirm your name and your call sign to your IP address.

There were some issues - not much but a couple with the original version, which the 2.0 version does not allow you to use proxy servers.
Basically when you send the copy of your license and your email address, they can read your ip address and can confirm who you are real quick.
Any improprieties and you are off the air.
When my call sign was updated to my new call, the very same day, my call sign on the echolink was also changed....

There is nothing special about Echolink, as a matter of fact, there is nothing for the average person on echolink. There is a lot of other web sites where a person can make a log in name and can talk without going through the hassle of getting a amateur radio license and call sign.

Skype, Yahoo Messenger, AOL Messenger, MSN Messenger etc....

[G6NHU]

That may be the case in the USA but I'd just like to remind you that nobody else who has posted in this thread so far can have their details verified by an "FCC data base" because we're all in the UK and the data isn't shared by OFCOM. Thankfully.

[sigord]

Thanks for your interest folks and the info. The point I am trying to make is that it is not strictly honest for HAMs to boast, especially to non HAMs the number of contacts they claim to make as in contests, when the majority are really unable to prove the contact is not in fact not a pirate or even located in the country claimed. The leaves Amateur Radio open to ridicule, especially when it has to be admitted the vast majority of QSOs in contests only last a few seconds, and the operator has no chance to exchange interesting details like name, age, occupation etc.

Admittedly long QSOs can take place of 160 and 80 m sometimes, but you need a very good antenna and increased power to stand a good chance of any real DX. Echolink has no such restrictions and cannot be compared to Skype or MSN Messenger, since you know all the users are more likely to be genuine licenced HAMs, and often the repeaters are maintained by Radio Clubs. Also you have a known common interest, and likely to be willing to exchange some personal info, even emails and visit each other web sites. I recently may have helped one or two Germans arrange holidays on my area.

Believes me I am not trying to belittle Amateur Radio. But as Club Secretary and Editor of my present Club after being a Treasurer of a SE London club for many years, I am always trying to enlighten long term HAMs as well as prospective novices as to the great advances in technology. For example after making enquires of guys who regularly use contests, I produced an article in our monthly News Letter for the diehards who still love collecting masses of QSL postcards. Until I pointed out it out many were unaware that these are no longer needed for the majority of contests, since LOGs are exchanged and verified electronically.

Gordon M3YXH

[G6NHU]

Thanks for your interest folks and the info. The point I am trying to make is that it is not strictly honest for HAMs to boast, especially to non HAMs the number of contacts they claim to make as in contests, when the majority are really unable to prove the contact is not in fact not a pirate or even located in the country claimed. The leaves Amateur Radio open to ridicule, especially when it has to be admitted the vast majority of QSOs in contests only last a few seconds, and the operator has no chance to exchange interesting details like name, age, occupation etc.

Erm, I'm not sure I know how to respond to this. I read this as you saying that using the radio for quick QSOs is ridiculous and leaves the hobby open to ridicule simply because there's a very faint possibility that one could be working a pirate.

At the weekend I worked around 80 stations in the IARU HF Championship including what was a new DXCC entity for me, the Dominican Republic. Are you seriously suggesting that I shouldn't tell anyone because that QSO might have been with a pirate? You also seem to be suggesting that if I mention at work that I spoke to someone in the Dominion Republic that I'll be ridiculed because a) the contact only lasted a few seconds and b) because that person might have been lieing about who they were and where they're located. That's so far from accurate that it's not even funny. I often come into work and discuss what I've been doing on the wireless and nobody has said "Meh, you worked a pirate".

Admittedly long QSOs can take place of 160 and 80 m sometimes, but you need a very good antenna and increased power to stand a good chance of any real DX. Echolink has no such restrictions and cannot be compared to Skype or MSN Messenger, since you know all the users are more likely to be genuine licenced HAMs, and often the repeaters are maintained by Radio Clubs. Also you have a known common interest, and likely to be willing to exchange some personal info, even emails and visit each other web sites. I recently may have helped one or two Germans arrange holidays on my area.

Here we go back to Echolink again. You seem quite paranoid about talking to pirates but it's incredibly simple to pirate on Echolink. Pick a callsign that's not in the FCC database, look on QRZ.com to find the name and address and knock up a convincing licence document in Photoshop - Total time would be about ten minutes.

Believes me I am not trying to belittle Amateur Radio. But as Club Secretary and Editor of my present Club after being a Treasurer of a SE London club for many years, I am always trying to enlighten long term HAMs as well as prospective novices as to the great advances in technology. For example after making enquires of guys who regularly use contests, I produced an article in our monthly News Letter for the diehards who still love collecting masses of QSL postcards. Until I pointed out it out many were unaware that these are no longer needed for the majority of contests, since LOGs are exchanged and verified electronically.

Gordon M3YXH

I get the impression you really are trying to belittle the hobby. Suggesting that Echolink is better than radio because there's a faint chance one might work a pirate is one of the stupidest things I've heard. Regarding QSL cards and contests, I've never heard of any contest where QSL cards are required so I don't really know what you're talking about there. I do agree though that some long term amateurs may be a bit behind in their knowledge of the latest technology though but does that really matter? Just because someone doesn't have the latest all singing, all dancing equipment in their shack doesn't mean they're any less of a radio ham than anyone else.

In fact, two weeks ago I had a near lighting strike at home that took out pretty much all of my radio equipment and my computers. A year ago I transferred my whole log to computer but if I'd not kept the paper log going then I'd have lost everything. At least that would have been the case if I didn't have an off-site copy of my data but not everyone does that.

[M0TTB]

The point I am trying to make is that it is not strictly honest for HAMs to boast, especially to non HAMs the number of contacts they claim to make as in contests, when the majority are really unable to prove the contact is not in fact not a pirate or even located in the country claimed. The leaves Amateur Radio open to ridicule, especially when it has to be admitted the vast majority of QSOs in contests only last a few seconds, and the operator has no chance to exchange interesting details like name, age, occupation etc.

Gordon M3YXH

With licences being practically given away in an increasing number of countries, there's next to no reason to pirate on the HF bands.
The pirate factor is so miniscule that it's simply not a realistic basis for your argument... it just seems like you're clutching at straws.

[sigord]

To begin with what power were you using and what antenna. I doubt you were using my limit of 10 watts, or a small whip.

I am merely sugesting HAMS should be honest when mentioning to non HAMs their achievements for the first time. They should be honest enogh to admit they had no way of being certain the contacts were really licenced or located where they claim.

Also have you never found any non HAMs who use mobiles, email and perhaps Skype regularly find it amusing we go to so much trouble to contact others, if we say little more than " you'r 5 and 9 ". On the other hand non HAMs I contact on various forum often find my long QSOs I am allowed to record on Echolink quite amusing and interesting.

[M0TTB]

To begin with what power were you using and what antenna. I doubt you were using my limit of 10 watts, or a small whip.

I am merely sugesting HAMS should be honest when mentioning to non HAMs their achievements for the first time. They should be honest enogh to admit they had no way of being certain the contacts were really licenced or located where they claim.

Also have you never found any non HAMs who use mobiles, email and perhaps Skype regularly find it amusing we go to so much trouble to contact others, if we say little more than " you'r 5 and 9 ". On the other hand non HAMs I contact on various forum often find my long QSOs I am allowed to record on Echolink quite amusing and interesting.

Quite what joe public have to do with any of this is beyond me... and this nonsense about "no way of being certain the contacts were really licenced or located where they claim", is just making you come across as a touch bonkers.

I think the basics are that you simply have never experienced the magic of radio, you know you never will, and you seem to begrudge those who do. You come across as someone who has recently become a radio amateur, and found it's not all you imagined, especially with the limitations of your age/residence/licence restrictions.
Good luck to you on your computer and phone line... shame you never experienced the magic of radio and having your callsign come back to you from a distant location.

[G6NHU]

To begin with what power were you using and what antenna. I doubt you were using my limit of 10 watts, or a small whip.

At the weekend I was using 100 watts and a loop strung out in my back garden. My lad who has an M6 licence also worked them using 10 watts and the same aerial.

I am merely sugesting HAMS should be honest when mentioning to non HAMs their achievements for the first time. They should be honest enogh to admit they had no way of being certain the contacts were really licenced or located where they claim.

So you reckon that next time I work some DX and tell people, I should say "Hey, I spoke to someone in New Zealand last night. Or maybe they were really on the Isle of Wight, I don't really know". Imagine how stupid that would be.

Also have you never found any non HAMs who use mobiles, email and perhaps Skype regularly find it amusing we go to so much trouble to contact others, if we say little more than " you'r 5 and 9 ". On the other hand non HAMs I contact on various forum often find my long QSOs I am allowed to record on Echolink quite amusing and interesting.

When I started working DX stations on HF last year (or perhaps I was just talking to pirates, who knows), I had the reaction you've described when I mentioned it at work, along the lines of "hah hah, never heard of Skype or mobile phones" but I took the trouble to explain that the thrill wasn't so much in the actual conversation but in the method it took place. The fact that I was able to generate a signal in a room in my house and have it travel around the world to be received at x thousand miles away with absolutely no assistance. Once I'd got that feeling across then the sense of achievement became clear. I recorded one of the DL0YLx operators working a pileup to play to a female colleague and she was very interested in what she heard. The whole point of radio is experimentation and experience and working to improve a station. The first time I worked into VK was only a couple of months ago and I did it with 20 watts on 7MHz with just a bit of random length wire hung out in my garden starting at eves height and ending up 5ft above the ground. One doesn't need hundreds of watts and massive aerials to work DX on HF.

[sigord]

As I posted earlier here I am 77, and although I only bothered to obtain a simple novices licence about 2 years ago, unlike many HAMs I have been tinkering around with Radios, TVs and other electronics for some 60 years, and played an active part in running 2 Radio Clubs. As to why we should bother about the opinions of ‘ Joe Public’, surely you can understand the future of our hobby, slowly dying in this country at least, relies on capturing the interest of the uninitiated.

I get rather annoyed at old timers telling me that using repeaters let alone Echolink with a PC is not Amateur Radio. It seems to me the future of our hobby relies on embracing all aspect of our hobby to encourage the new generation of the public, often experienced in much of today’s modern technology, to become involved. Boasting about contacting others often through massive interference no matter how far away, though undoubtedly a challenge, just to exchange call signs and a 5 an 9 is obviously not likely to appeal to them.

[M0TTB]

As I posted earlier here I am 77, and although I only bothered to obtain a simple novices licence about 2 years ago, unlike many HAMs I have been tinkering around with Radios, TVs and other electronics for some 60 years, and played an active part in running 2 Radio Clubs. As to why we should bother about the opinions of ‘ Joe Public’, surely you can understand the future of our hobby, slowly dying in this country at least, relies on capturing the interest of the uninitiated.

60yrs, but you have shown that you have no experience of operating on HF and little on any form of radio.... so I take great exception to you making silly misleading statements regarding HF operating.

I'm certainly no contester but they have been around since the start of amateur radio and have gained increasing popularity. Those operating from the big contest stations are often the younger element in amateur radio, the competitive element is very appealing to the young. It is clearly not your cup of tea, as seems any qso that is not a noise free prolonged ragchew, but don't go making assumptions on what appeals to others.

I know several people who use echolink, I have no gripe with it as it is often an important and sole means of social interaction for some elderly ops, but those that I know who use it are under no illusions about what it is.

[G6NHU]

You seem obsessed by the fact that you think Joe Public will wonder whether we're working pirates or not and that's really not the case. Mr. Public and his brothers and sisters won't give a hoot. I discuss the wireless with my work colleagues a lot and that subject has never, repeat, never cropped up.

Can you please explain to me in simple terms how Echolink with a PC is amateur radio? You talk into a computer which then uses an internet connection and voice over IP to talk to someone who may (or may not) have an amateur radio licence. The person you are talking to may be using a radio but there's a good chance that they're on a computer as well. That's not radio, of course it isn't and to claim it is is ridiculous.

I have no problems with repeaters, they're designed to extend the range of mobile and portable stations who are using radio transmitters. I use 2m and 70cms repeaters when I'm in the car, they're essential for mobile communication. Personally I'd never use one from my home station because I don't feel it's appropriate but I don't complain about people who do.

I agree that we need to embrace technology, but please lets embrace radio technology rather than use Skype with a fancy interface which is all these Echolink/CQ100/QSONET things are.

My age is unimportant but I've had my ticket for nearly thirty years, been involved with the running of numerous radio clubs, I was one of the very early pioneers of packet radio in the UK and I operated the first ever licenced amateur radio<>internet APRS gateway so I do have a little experience of linking the radio and the internet together and was very aware of what I was doing and how it impacted on the radio side of things.

As an aside, I'm intrigued as to why you keep capitalising the word 'ham'. It's not an abbreviation or acronym at all so really it shouldn't be capitalised.

73
Keith.

[M0TTB]

At least in this brave new world i can delete all my solar data bookmarks, all I need is this
http://www.netstatus.co.uk/bt/

[M0VFC]

This topic is too good not to reply to :-)

First-off, some definitions: Echolink, with a PC at both ends (which may or may not be the case), is not "radio", in the sense that there's no RF involved. However - and this is a big however - it's a perfectly valid part of a hobby. It's different, and no doubt allows many people to talk to many others that they may not otherwise have had the opportunity to talk to. That's great, in my mind. But it's a very different beast to HF, and both have their place! As such, the concept of "DX" is irrelevant in the Echolink world - there's no difference between speaking to someone down the road, or the other side of the world, because what's happening is the chat, not the technical challenge of propagation.

Secondly, on requiring huge antennas and high power to work DX: sure, it's easier with 400w and a beam at 60', but the challenge can be even more fun without! I'm very fortunate in having access to such a setup in the form of the G6UW shack, and I've enjoyed many hours of operating from there. But my current goal is to get DXCC from home, with a very small garden surrounded by houses, 100w maximum, and home-built wire antennas. And I'm nearly there. Or, to take it to the next level, one of my great memories from our trip to Scotland earlier this year was seeing Mark, M0MJH, working VK long path on 20m, using less than 5w, and a 10' long antenna, all mounted on his rucksack. Better yet, he then ramped the power down to 0.5w, and one of the Australians at the other end of the link recorded his signal and played it back over the air. How utterly magical to hear your signal, having gone more than half way around the world *and back again*, using less power than a torch bulb!

Thirdly, on "rubber stamp" QSOs: as Keith says, there's a time and a place for different QSO styles, and different people quite rightly have different preferences. If you're operating in a contest, then why waste time exchanging more than the minimum? Similarly, if you've spent, in some cases, hundreds of thousands of pounds putting on a DX'pedition to a super-rare location which may not be activated again for literally tens of years (did you see the photos of the K5D Desecheo Island, or Scarborough Reef operations?), your first priority must be to allow the maximum number of people the opportunity to work you. On the other hand, if you're enjoying a Sunday morning in the sun at home, chatting to someone else doing the same, by all means take your time.

We certainly should embrace new technology. I'm a software engineer myself, and if I tried to claim to anyone that knew me that I was against new technology, they'd quite rightly laugh at me :-). PSK31, and more recently, WSJT and SDR, are great examples of technology being used to advance the hobby. But in doing so, we must decide what elements of Amateur Radio make it that. And for me, one of those elements is the use of an RF path between the two stations in a contact.

Cheers,
Rob, M0VFC

[M0VFC]

As to why we should bother about the opinions of ‘ Joe Public’, surely you can understand the future of our hobby, slowly dying in this country at least, relies on capturing the interest of the uninitiated.

I get rather annoyed at old timers telling me that using repeaters let alone Echolink with a PC is not Amateur Radio. It seems to me the future of our hobby relies on embracing all aspect of our hobby to encourage the new generation of the public, often experienced in much of today’s modern technology, to become involved. Boasting about contacting others often through massive interference no matter how far away, though undoubtedly a challenge, just to exchange call signs and a 5 an 9 is obviously not likely to appeal to them.

Ah, and I missed this bit...

1) I contest that amateur radio is slowly dying. In some areas, maybe, but in Cambridgeshire at least, it's getting more popular by the month: our monthly "Pie & Pint" meet-ups have gone from a small handful of people a year or two ago to in excess of thirty, with some travelling significant distances. VHF contest operation has gone from almost zero to my count of at least 15 stations active in JO02 square last Tuesday. We're getting more and more people licensed through the local clubs, many of whom then go on to become active in many varied aspects of the hobby. It's certainly changing, but not dying.

2) Despite an amusing and often-repeated quote from a consultant at work describing me as an old codger, I'd like to hope that, at 25, I've not quite reached that stage in amateur radio. So, speaking as someone who might reasonably be part of the "new generation" you describe, I can assure you that the challenge of making contacts through difficult conditions is rather appealing. I can have a leisurely chat with people over the phone, Skype, Facebook, Google+ Hangouts, or any of the many other technologies that provide such a service. Or even in person! So, for me, the extended chat facility provided by Echolink is something I already have, and offers me nothing new, nor particularly interesting.

The challenges of radio propagation, of antenna design, electronics design and construction, operating strategies, DX'pedition logistics, and the many, many other things that go along with this hobby. They're fascinating.